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It was one big PONZI scheme

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Florestan Bronstein	Posted - 2011.03.04 07:04:00 - [1] Originally by: cosmoray Assets can be boosted with good quality BPC's that software can't see difference (used to be at least). still the case - software only looks through finished industry jobs to identify BPOs. An auditor would probably ask you to show BPOs on a contract if they are a large part of you NAV but I think you could come up with plausible reasons to evade that.
Florestan Bronstein	Posted - 2011.03.04 07:10:00 - [2] Originally by: Fulbert Philosophical concerns : isn't EVE online a giant Ponzi scheme with Jovian lolcats on the top? nah... the Broker is playing the empires while the Enheduanni (-> Theodicy) are playing the Jovians (and everyone else).
Florestan Bronstein Amarr Taishi Combine	Posted - 2011.03.04 11:47:00 - [3] Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 04/03/2011 11:54:48 Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha So, what solution do you propose? Because talk is cheap. The only solution is to get rid off investing for monetary gain. Loaning (or gifting) ISK to people you want to help works very well and is practiced all over the place in EVE - from helping out random strangers in NPC corp chat to raising ISK to finance the next big corp/alliance goal. In fact many of the gifts I have handed out over the time ended up being loans as the player returned the items/ISK I had given him as soon as he could afford it (mostly new players that I had given fitted ships, ISK for implants, ...) Loaning out virtual money in order to earn passive income, makes the loan just yet another business transaction and introduces profit making/greed into the whole equation. (edit: very poor choice of words here by me - in fact it creates the need to view the transaction as an "equation" in the first place) During the past few years I have looked at other MMOs whenever I got bored of EVE and in all other games I have found people helping each other, sharing resources and lending each other items or materials. In no other game I have found people charging interest and trying to create a passive income from handing out loans (of course a polite borrower will always try to include a small tip when paying back but that's politeness & gratitude, not a commercial requirement). Loans work great as long as they are backed by a social relationship. <insert obligatory Marx quotes on alienation here>
Florestan Bronstein Amarr Taishi Combine	Posted - 2011.03.05 07:39:00 - [4] Originally by: Caldariftw123 EULA violating issues are things we cannot account for, and that if caught CCP might BAN for, as opposed to scamming which is fine. FTFY It is well known that account sharing is de facto tolerated by CCP as long as no conflicts over the ownership of accounts or assets arise.
Florestan Bronstein Amarr Taishi Combine	Posted - 2011.03.05 14:07:00 - [5] Originally by: RAW23 Over the last two months there have been literally dozens of posts claiming that the pro-audit camp thinks audits can do x, y and z, and whilst these claims are normally tackled quite quickly the constant repetition can easily lead someone to think that such claims might, in fact, have been made. The most common argument is that (somewhat sheepish) investors think an audit does x, y and z - not that the auditor or the pro-audit camp thinks it does x, y and z. Experience in MD shows that many investors are looking for very simple heuristics on whether to invest or not - EBANK/Ricdics investing was one of these, a positive audit report is another one, RAW23 investing has been cited in Signatures recently , ... People just don't like to make hard decisions when there are many risks involved and when the available information is complex and fuzzy. Audits are an especially convenient way to let someone else decide for you (and VV's frequent "investors have never lost money in an investment that was audited by me" claims do encourage them to behave like lemmings). In their current form audits act as fact checks for a small elite of investors and as the "MD seal of approval" for everyone else. Without nice audit reports investors would have to fall back on other heuristics that would hopefully be more easily debunked - in the ideal case a certain class of people would just shake their head at the complexity of investment decisions in MD and leave. Getting rid off audits would hopefully contribute to getting rid off the impression that MD investments can ever be more than an extremely risky gamble. Ironically VV is in my opinion the biggest threat to audits in MD - although she does instantly respond to any criticism with "look at my disclaimer here" she frequently overshoots the target by citing her flawless track record, making comparisons to (secure) RL, trying to prevent alternative checks with less potential for misinterpretation, ... and ends up contributing to the "audited investments are safe" attitude she tries(?) to prevent. Audits are fact checks of extremely limited value, they serve as a barrier of entry for certain low-level scams and help to enable other, more sophisticated scams. Of course some people will now respond "it is not the fault of the auditor if investors are stupid" but in my opinion the behavior of the masses is a constant that has to be planned with. Analogy: Assume I could legalize the sale of undenatured alcohol with a high degree of methanol (denaturing the alcohol might be costly or reduce some properties useful in industrial applications). Of course alcoholics all over the place would blind or kill themselves by consumption of that alcohol. I could then answer "not my fault they didn't take the warning signs on the bottle seriously enough. Darwin strikes again!". But imo I would still have acted irresponsibly as the effect of my decision to enable the sale of this drinkable, "bad" alcohol was fully anticipated by me and I recognized the necessity to protect certain people from themselves but didn't act on that realization. Currently audits still seem to do more good than bad but it is only a matter of time until this changes and cosmoray's audit-enabled scams are just the first steps of scammers using audits to gain credibility. The more people "believe" in audits the more attractive to put in the little extra effort to pass an audit. At some point MD will get rid off audits as they will only be regarded as tools that enable scammers.
Florestan Bronstein Amarr Taishi Combine	Posted - 2011.03.05 14:25:00 - [6] Originally by: Misty McGinnity your face when (yfw) you find out he is a 40 year old unemployed software engineer: I am well aware that the player behind VV is male IRL but I generally refer to characters, not the people playing them.
Florestan Bronstein Amarr Taishi Combine	Posted - 2011.03.06 15:01:00 - [7] Originally by: Liberty Eternal 5.) Acquiring a pseudo-audit is a possible scheme that may work if vigilance is relaxed. However it is hopeless so long as auditing remains credible. cosmoray shows how this can work - just borrow the missing assets from a friend or from an undisclosed business of yours in order to pass the audit.
Florestan Bronstein Amarr Taishi Combine	Posted - 2011.03.06 15:26:00 - [8] Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 06/03/2011 15:27:35 Machete, you miss that many forms of scamming do not prevent you from trading, mission running, ... The time spent by a scammer on the forums is hopefully much less than 1h/day every day (btw I spend a lot of time reading & posting on forums while I am running missions). Also cosmoray enjoyed a fair amount of respect and reputation on these forums while his Ponzi scheme was running - you don't get that by running missions. (in principle you are of course right - I just think that the cost you associate with running a scam is much too high) The best scammer is the one who builds a completely legit & profitable business and just keeps all public money once he thinks it is unlikely that he will need/get further public financing. That's the rational thing to do for the purely economically minded player and can hardly be prevented.
Florestan Bronstein Amarr Taishi Combine	Posted - 2011.03.16 19:07:00 - [9] Originally by: Fitz VonHeise If you know of any of Cosmoray's alts names please let me know so I can add those to the list. gnomer & Irgazin are on the same account as cosmoray (as per the API key he had posted here)
Florestan Bronstein Amarr Taishi Combine	Posted - 2011.03.17 10:50:00 - [10] Originally by: Fitz VonHeise Originally by: YouGotRipped Your sad devotion to moral precepts that have no foundation in the real world is what determined me to scam you in the first place. Dang! I missed another scam?? So where is the orginal link about that? Linkage June 2009^^

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